Veejane ([info]veejane) wrote,
@ 2008-04-22 17:56:00
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Reading up on the whole "Hey, let's turn con spaces into public grope spaces! Only for people who want it I swear" thing today, I'm struck again (and again, and again) by how many people really don't think about safety at cons.

Trufax: cons are no more safe than a public library.

Trufax: people get assaulted (raped, battered, etc.) in public libraries, just like any other public space.

1. Most cons are open membership.

If you can fill out a form and write a check, you can attend just about any con. You get a little badge that identifies you as a member, and that badge gets you access to parties (most of which serve alcohol) and a sense of mutual recognition among your con-going peers. Anybody can get a badge and become a member.

That badge does not turn a stranger into a friend, or a spiritual twin, or a confidante. It doesn't even necessarily signify a mutual interest in science fiction topics. (Witness all the non-SFF spouses who skip the panels and hang out in the bar.) It just means you have $40 (or $200, or howevermuch) to spare and the ability to provide a home address.

The badge by itself does not signal safety.

2. Most cons feature people with varying social skillsets and varying intents.

The tradition of cons is as gathering spaces for the nerds of this earth. The rejected, the alienated, the weird, the dorky: we bend over backwards to be welcoming to people who might not feel welcomed in the outside world. That's part of the basis of the con gathering.

And guess what: some of those people are alienated in the outside world because they have crappy social skills. Cons are tolerant spaces, but tolerant spaces plus crappy social skills can sometimes lead to unsafe situations.

That goes double when alcohol is in play, and triple when there are things like unescorted minors at the con. Not everybody knows how to respect other people, and a tiny minority might be actively predatory.

Even if you're an adult, it is no less possible to find yourself in an unsafe situation at-con than it would be at a frat party. Probably more possible, since con hotels are ten times the size of a frat house.

3. Most cons take place in open spaces.

Your average con takes place at a hotel with convention space. I've never seen an hotel be completely taken over by a con: there are always other guests in the lobby, in the halls, in the stairwells.

And if you want an image of unsafety at-con, how's this one: a con-member alone, more than a couple of beers down, late at night so not many people are around, trying to climb the stairs to sleep off the night's excitement. If your heart doesn't clutch in fear at the noise of a stranger following her up the stairs, then you haven't thought through what "safety" means.

Hotels don't screen for craziness among the people who use their services. Most hotels don't even have much in the way for stopping a stranger from walking in off the street and roaming the hotel hallways (to say nothing of the hotel bar). You are no safer in a hotel hallway than you are in a hallway at the mall. Just because you're surrounded by people you feel like you know (see 2), and you feel like you have a lot in common with (see 1), you cannot be sure of everybody in the space. Hotels and cons just don't have that kind of security.

4. Con comms cannot be your safety panacea.

Con comms do try to plan ahead to reduce potential danger areas. They field queries and requests from members, they handle awkward situations, they might ban repeat offenders outright. But they can't be everywhere.

I'm not even sure all cons have explicitly written harassment policies. Certainly those policies are not posted on the walls of the con space (I presume those cons with policies print them in the backs of of con-booklets, or similar). And while con workers can have a huge effect in creating the kind of mood where safety is looked after, they don't have police powers, and may even be reluctant to step in for fear of breaking the illusion of a big, happy con-community.

We're not a big, happy con-community.

I go to cons with people whose politics I can't stand, people I personally loathe, people with B.O. like you wouldn't believe, people who don't know a polite brush-off from a hole in the wall. If you have ever in your life attended a con, surely you have seen some dumb asshole wearing a badge just like yours that you would never in your life want to be associated with.

I also go to cons with people I like and trust and respect, and sometimes with people I love deeply and with whom I would entrust my life.

Never assume that the con is composed entirely of your friends. It's not. People of every stripe come to cons, and plenty of those stripes are unpleasant, unhealthy, unwise, or unsafe.

The prevailing myth, as [info]james_angove reminded me today, is that SFF fans are better people: are wiser, are more advanced, are more respectful than any given mundane on the street. If you don't know that that's a myth, please don't go to cons. If that myth were actually true, then SFF comms would not be so wanky and famous SFF people would not act like assholes on the internet.

Trufax: famous SFF people act like assholes on the internet all the time.

Trufax: Fandom is full of foolish, mendacious, mean, predatory, clueless, grabbyhands, and self-deluding people, because fandom is full of people.

It is not in the interest of your safety to assume otherwise.


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[info]vom_marlowe
2008-04-22 10:23 pm UTC (link)
I can also tell you, as someone who works in a library open to the public, that banning known scary people is really hard work. Sometimes we have known sexual predators inside and we cannot ban them because they were not caught in the act. The predators go to libraries because they know prey is there. I assume cons and con-hotels are the same.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]veejane
2008-04-22 10:31 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, the predator-at-library thing happened in my state recently. He was on parole (I think) for a previous crime, and trolled the public library and got at a six year old. Which... at least this time, he was caught in the act, and will never see daylight again.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]vom_marlowe, 2008-04-22 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]telophase, 2008-04-22 11:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vom_marlowe, 2008-04-22 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]telophase, 2008-04-22 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vom_marlowe, 2008-04-22 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kate_nepveu, 2008-04-23 12:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]serrana, 2008-04-22 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vom_marlowe, 2008-04-22 11:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]serrana, 2008-04-23 02:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vito_excalibur, 2008-04-23 01:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]serrana, 2008-04-23 02:16 am UTC

[info]orca_girl
2008-04-22 10:23 pm UTC (link)
All extremely "Word", although me, I'm stuck back on the first sentence:

"Reading up on the whole "Hey, let's turn con spaces into public grope spaces! Only for people who want it I swear" thing today..."

... There's a "Hey, let's turn con spaces into public grope spaces! Only for people who want it I swear" thing???

?????????????

Right. Which begets your post. Please take my plethora of question marks as equalling the motivation of your post. I'm just... really? REALLY?

The prevailing myth, as james_angove reminded me today, is that SFF fans are better people: are wiser, are more advanced, are more respectful than any given mundane on the street. If you don't know that that's a myth, please don't go to cons.

Yes. YES.

Gah. I mean, and even if you believed that myth (which, *shudder*, just tells me you've never been groped at a con or SCA event -- which is a very similar thing, although different in some key ways -- against your will, in which case, *lucky you*), all the stuff about the hotels -- YES YES YES.

I have to assume that part of the cluelessness comes from an assumption that SF cons are like, I dunno, secret societies or something. You'd never register for one if you didn't already know what it was, right? You'd never walk in the door off the street and buy a registration if you were just there to be a creep/predator, because if you weren't already "in" the community, then how would you know it was easy pickings?

To which I say: one, because you HAVE EYES. Two, because cons are no longer the community's little secret any more. Three, apart from all that, why this insistence on believing that the SF community itself cannot possibly contain predators? Aargh.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]cofax7
2008-04-22 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Read [info]coffeeandink or [info]kate_nepveu's posts today. Be prepared to be appalled--although lucky you, the instigator deleted most of his comments, so you can't see all the commenters who think that anyone who doesn't want to be groped in public is just sexually unhealthy. It's empowering to be groped, didn't you know?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]orca_girl, 2008-04-23 01:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2008-04-23 03:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2008-04-23 09:35 pm UTC

[info]veejane
2008-04-22 10:34 pm UTC (link)
I'm just... really? REALLY?

Yes, really. As if Harlan Ellison v. Connie Willis were not fresh in the mind of everybody in the whole entire galaxy. The chief publicist has just now withdrawn his proposal, sadly seeing the error of his optimistic ways (although steadfastly refusing to see the error of everything else in his shitty attitude).

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]telepresence
2008-04-22 11:22 pm UTC (link)
I don't think she's on your flist, but some of us were were talking about this earlier in [info]peaseplossom's journal.

Setting aside the highly problematic aspects of the core idea, the initial post about (since edited) was headache-inducingly infantile.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]telepresence, 2008-04-22 11:22 pm UTC

[info]pgtremblay
2008-04-22 10:33 pm UTC (link)
Very well said.

(Reply to this)


[info]coffeeandink
2008-04-22 10:43 pm UTC (link)
You are, as usual, awesomesauce!

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[info]minim_calibre
2008-04-22 10:46 pm UTC (link)
If you don't know that that's a myth, please don't go to cons. If that myth were actually true, then SFF comms would not be so wanky and famous SFF people would not act like assholes on the internet.

Sadly, the vast majority of people I know in RL who go to cons, run cons, and are basically heavily involved in the entire con scene, have bought into that myth hook, line, and sinker. (It's not that they don't acknowledge that there is DRAMA, it's just that, well, they're STILL better than those Other People out there. Which, just... no.)

I wish I could say that the proposal, such as it was, was at all shocking.

But it's not, largely because I spent my teens and twenties going to cons.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]cofax7
2008-04-22 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Really, cons are proof of the Soylent Green rule writ large.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]minim_calibre
2008-04-22 10:49 pm UTC (link)
(And additionally, I tend to think that it's that exact attitude, that We Geeks Are Better Humans, that fosters the sort of stupid human tricks detailed in that idiot's post.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]veejane, 2008-04-22 10:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cristalia, 2008-04-22 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]veejane, 2008-04-22 11:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cristalia, 2008-04-23 12:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ckd, 2008-04-23 02:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cristalia, 2008-04-23 03:06 am UTC

[info]vaznetti
2008-04-22 10:49 pm UTC (link)
You are very sensible. My memory is that cons also generally feature lowered inhibitions, which can be a recipe for disaster even without GropeGate.

(Reply to this)


[info]cryptoxin
2008-04-22 11:09 pm UTC (link)
There was a big incident a few years back in comics fandom, where an aspiring female artist was unwelcomely groped in a hot tub at a con by -- I want to say that it was someone involved with the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, but I don't remember the details, just that it was a prominent/well-connected guy. Okay, I Google'd -- here's a link from The Comics Journal, probably not the best one but it captures the feel of some of the online discussions when this became public.

So yeah, cons =/= "respecting the sanctity of personal boundaries, plus common courtesy/decency/sense."

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]cofax7
2008-04-22 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Wow. After reading that I can certainly predict the online response: she asked for it! She was in a hot tub with him! So what if she was clothed? So what if she felt obliged to not alienate someone who could further her career? Bleah. (That said, I would have left after he threw me into the pool the first time.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cryptoxin, 2008-04-22 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coffeeandink, 2008-04-23 02:44 am UTC

[info]ckd
2008-04-22 11:52 pm UTC (link)
Heck, for at-the-door reg you can usually pay cash, so you don't even need to write a check.

"I see this registration form lists your name as Elwood P. Blues of 1060 West Addison, Chicago."

(Reply to this)


[info]coraa
2008-04-22 11:59 pm UTC (link)
This is brilliant, thank you.

The first time I was at a con, I was fifteen. (I was generally mistaken for much younger, actually -- I looked more like thirteen.) I was propositioned out of the blue by a man who was thirty-plus (he was seated next to me for the masquerade). While I don't know if he would have gotten pushy (I suspect not), it was frightening -- I was a sheltered kid, with no toolkit for dealing with advances, and my choices were basically to be trapped next to him or to get up and leave the masquerade in the middle.

Fortunately for me, I was there with a friend's mother, who was an old hand at cons and who swept me away as soon as I appeared distressed, but it really taught me that, while cons are (or can be) fun, they're not utopian safe space.

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[info]veejane
2008-04-23 01:26 am UTC (link)
Ugh, that's unpleasant. And could have been moreso; I'm glad you were companioned by somebody with experience and sense.

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[info]rilina
2008-04-23 12:07 am UTC (link)
As usual, I am so glad that you and your shiny brains are on the intarwebs.

Also, I continue to boggle at anyone who thinks a public library are some safe utopia. I would direct anyone with such ideas to take a look at the assortment of regulars who line up outside the one I work at every morning.

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[info]timesink
2008-04-23 12:28 am UTC (link)
It is so sad that any of this needs to be said.

That said, you said it pretty damn well.

(Reply to this)


[info]forodwaith
2008-04-23 01:09 am UTC (link)
Even if everything else you said weren't true, these:
most hotels don't even have much in the way for stopping a stranger from walking in off the street and roaming the hotel hallways
are words to live by.

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[info]snurri
2008-04-23 03:34 am UTC (link)
Yes, to all of this. Particularly the part where some SF people think they are more evolved. No, just because you have decided that mundane society is--er--mundane, and you only have to follow the rules that seem sensible to you, DOES NOT MEAN you get to create new ones to "make up for" the fact that you spent your sexual prime celibate.

Motherfuckers.

Apropos of con talk, are you coming to WisCon this year?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]veejane
2008-04-23 12:21 pm UTC (link)
Alas! No. I have no bucks this year. However, you could always come to Readercon...

*bats eyelashes prettily*

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snurri, 2008-04-23 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2008-04-24 04:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]veejane, 2008-04-24 05:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2008-04-24 05:11 pm UTC

[info]hossgal
2008-04-23 03:55 am UTC (link)
Well said, on many levels. (And applies to lj fandom as well as to SFF con-going fandom as well.)

- hg

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[info]sundancekid
2008-04-23 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Found this via... hell, I've read lots of links today. But yes, this is a great and sensible post. And one of the first things I thought of when I read the original post (and that was my experience with the one con I went to) is that Vacation Behavior (the whole what happens in Vegas... idea) is rampant at cons -- oh, not at home? Not going to see these people again? Time to go crazy! Which totally adds to that unsafe atmosphere.

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[info]lexin
2008-04-24 12:20 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for saying this...my experience is of UK cons, where another problem can be caused by someone of 16-18 (drinking's legal at 18, but people can and do look older) and their first serious exposure to alcohol without the guiding hand of a parent.

That can be very bad in so, so many ways.

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